All The Things You Aren't Supposed to Talk About : Politics, Religion, & Money! && Grammar!!

Discussion in 'Community Hang-Out' started by simplyTravis, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. GaemzDood

    GaemzDood Well-Known Member

  2. Juegos

    Juegos All mods go to heaven. Staff Member Moderator

    Well I'm confused because we had been talking about America's gun laws and immigration for a while, so I assumed that's what you were referring to. I don't personally know anyone that advocates for completely open borders in the US, so I've never had to have that argument.

    That said, I didn't mean to imply that you were racist. I questioned your defense of what amounts to murder by obviously racist people, considering these people would shoot immigrants even if the borders were legally open. Whatever culture these individuals perceive to be theirs, it is not worth as much as life or property, so the idea that murder is morally justifiable as self-defense in that scenario is absurd.
  3. GaemzDood

    GaemzDood Well-Known Member

    White supremacy isn't culture. It's collectivism. There is, in fact, European culture. The Scottish have their own culture, as to the Irish, British, Greeks, Swedes, etc. Whiteness in itself isn't a culture.

    Also, most Libertarians, socialists and capitalists alike, advocate for open borders. That's where the argument against it is coming from. It's not reasonable to expect a free society to form covenants with borders, as explained in Democracy: The God That Failed.

    It was also a rebuttal against Bob because of the recent events that have come from the EU embracing open borders.

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  4. Shoulder

    Shoulder Shouldy McShoulderface chippin' in

    So if mental illness isn't the issue then, why are people using it as a basis for all the gun violence anyway when that doesn't appear to be the problem? On top of that, then what IS the issue with gun violence? I suppose at this rate, you might be able to make an argument that with the amount of ease it is to acquire and own guns, it might be a contribution factor to gun violence as a whole.

    But then, I suppose while we're at it, we can include Media, Entertainment, and for good measure, Politics to the mix.

    EDIT: A lot of this would probably be answered already if funding would be allowed to research gun violence, and gun control, and how it pertains to society, but that is currently banned.
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  5. Odo

    Odo Well-Known Member

    I get your point of view and it's not wrong.

    I think that guns themselves and a reasonable easy access to them isn't the problem either.

    Maybe @Koenig can answer you better because he's talked about that before, concerning the Constitution and the American culture and idealism.

    The USA is a nation that was designed to make the people ready to defend itself from the government in any circumstance, including the most extreme ones. That's the anti-king, the anti-loyalty, idea that comes from the revolution, imo. I've heard a joke or a quote, I don't know, that says "In countries like Britain and Canada the law is about peace and order, in the USA is about pursuit of happiness".

    In the USA, the right to have an arsenal and to be able to arm small militia in order to defend yourself against anything including the gov is pursuit of happiness and the people don't want to give it up. Does it make sense, today? I don't know, but some people have an arsenal and have never harmed anyone, others will buy one gun and mass murder 100 people the next day.
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  6. theMightyME

    theMightyME Editor in Chief of TVEnthusiast

    except that their small arms mean literally NOTHING to the military might of the nation's government in the modern era

    and saying gun ownership should be protected for the pursuit of happiness is as stupid as saying trolling for children around elementary schools should be legal for the same reason, or anything else that allows 1 person to easily and horrifically victimize another

    id guns are about rebelling against a government ot protecting your family, how does that have anything to do with the pursuit of happiness... that would be more in line with using guns to go on a shooting rampage or to rob banks

    a more reasonable way to put it would be to protect life, liberty, and property

    protecting your and your families lives with guns is a fair argument, except that in most cases it backfires and goes the other way, as in you put your family in greater danger by having a gun

    protecting your liberty made sense when our nation was formed, but not so much now when the government has nukes, tanks, and submarines

    protecting property goes along with protecting life, although there is less risk to property when you own a gun then there is to life.

    but guns for the pursuit of happiness? lol
  7. theMightyME

    theMightyME Editor in Chief of TVEnthusiast

  8. Shoulder

    Shoulder Shouldy McShoulderface chippin' in

    Guns for the pursuit of happiness from a tyrannical government, but a tyrannical government won't happen in this day and age.
  9. GaemzDood

    GaemzDood Well-Known Member

    Do you any evidence to refute the studies that say otherwise?

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  10. GaemzDood

    GaemzDood Well-Known Member

    Such studies should be privately funded.

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  11. GaemzDood

    GaemzDood Well-Known Member

    The Puckle Gun was created 73 years before the 2nd Amendment. The argument that the founding fathers didn't expect guns to become more powerful is invalidated by that.

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  12. GaemzDood

    GaemzDood Well-Known Member

    That's because Australia experienced a higher living standard. Venezuela has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world and is the murder capital of Latin America. Good economics also factors into lower crime.

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  13. Shoulder

    Shoulder Shouldy McShoulderface chippin' in

    It depends on the group doing the study, rather than if it's funded via the private sector, or with our tax dollars.

    I'm a little confused by your post because I never said anything about the founding fathers not anticipating future advancements in firearms.

    It's a fair point concerning economic qualities of different countries, however, you say that Venezuela has some of the strictest gun laws, and very high crime. Is the crime a direct result of the gun laws, or are there other factors as well? There is corruption, hyperinflation, and scarcity of food in many areas, and I doubt those are the result of strict gun laws.

    I'm not saying you're entirely wrong here, but just because some countries have strict gun laws, and high crime, it doesn't mean the gun laws themselves are the cause. And on the same token, lax gun laws, and low crime is not always the case either.
  14. theMightyME

    theMightyME Editor in Chief of TVEnthusiast

    wouldn't that be liberty, not the pursuit of happiness?
  15. Shoulder

    Shoulder Shouldy McShoulderface chippin' in

    Perhaps you could say the Liberty is part of the happiness. And for many 2nd Amendment advocates, it's not just about the liberty. That liberty brings them happiness.
  16. theMightyME

    theMightyME Editor in Chief of TVEnthusiast

    what studies say that Mass shootings are not often the result of mental illness? note that Is aid MASS shootings, not talking about gang violence, suicide, etc.. but rather stuff like Columbine and the recent Vegas shooting

    take a study like this that refutes mental illness as the cause of shootings

    if you actually READ the study, the point they are making is that people who suffer mental illness do not have a mass shooting at the end state of their psychosis, NOT that the mental illness of the shooters didn't lead to the shootings, and not that treating them in advance could have prevented the crimes

    "Each of these statements is certainly true in particular instances. Evidence strongly suggests that mass shooters are often mentally ill and socially marginalized. Enhanced psychiatric attention may well prevent particular crimes. And, to be sure, mass shootings often shed light on the need for more investment in mental health support networks or improved state laws and procedures regarding gun access"

    the counter point they then pursue is more about not considering every person suffering mental illness as a potential shooter, which is also correct

    it then goes into how there is a lack of evidence about people with mental illness being more likely to commit gun violence... but that separates itself from MASS shootings and into the more general territory of gun violence... when a gang member kills a rival gang member, or accidentally shoots a pedestrian, or when a drug cartel murders their competition or potential threats, the crime is not linked to mental illness but may very well be a direct act of gun violence...

    we aren't talking about all gun violence, we are talking about the senseless mass shootings that have been escalating in this country

    we are talking about these
  17. theMightyME

    theMightyME Editor in Chief of TVEnthusiast

    you don't think that is stretching it a bit much though... saying that gun ownership is about the pursuit of happiness?

    to me, that is like arguing that bank robbery should be legal, because I sure would be happy to have all that money... it is silly

    especially when life, liberty, and property is so DIRECTLY tied to gun ownership concerns

    I mean this entire part of the argument is over semantics anyways, but c'mon
  18. Shoulder

    Shoulder Shouldy McShoulderface chippin' in

    I wasn't trying to be serious in my previous post actually. It was meant more as a joke.
  19. GaemzDood

    GaemzDood Well-Known Member

    You know my stance on taxes I assume.

    That's the argument a lot of gun control advocates make.

    It's not a direct result of guns being gone, that would be absurd. However, my contention is that having strict gun laws didn't stop the state from being a murder capital that makes Chicago look like Upper St. Clair.

    As for the bold text, it will continue to happen until Marxists are physically removed or admit that their ideas pathologically fail every time they're tried.
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  20. Odo

    Odo Well-Known Member

    Couldn't agree more.
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  21. repomech

    repomech resident remnant robot relic

    This is an interesting discussion of who you think should be excluded, but doesn't give us any indication as to how you would exclude them.

    For these exclusions to occur, a vetting and licensing process would need to exist as a barrier to legal gun acquisition. Am I to understand that this is implicit in your post and that you are mostly concerned with the details of what such a process would look like (ie what exclusions should be made)?
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  22. GaemzDood

    GaemzDood Well-Known Member

  23. FriedShoes

    FriedShoes MLG Staff Member Moderator

  24. GaemzDood

    GaemzDood Well-Known Member

    Guys, look up successful communism on Rule 34.

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  25. simplyTravis

    simplyTravis "A nice guy, but looks like a f'n Jedi!"

    So, new topic for y'all to ponder/discuss/argue about.

    Do you believe that evil is real? Do you think a person can be evil? Are they born that way or is it something that is created by their environment?
  26. simplyTravis

    simplyTravis "A nice guy, but looks like a f'n Jedi!"

    I bring up the "is there evil" topic because of our discussion with mental health and the massacre in Las Vegas. I think there is evil inherent in some people's hearts and that evil is infectious. While I do think most people are good, I have witnessed a few people grow from being a good person to something no longer human in essence. But, I also believe that we all struggle with what is good and evil throughout life. We seem to legitimize evil nowadays by stating that it is institutionalized, mental disorders, or even necessary at times. Sort of like a drug addict that legitimizes their addiction. We can't face that there is evil because we simply don't want to admit it.

    This year has been witness to some of the most evil acts and some of the greatest acts of good that I've seen in the US. In some ways I feel like all of the natural disasters and people coming together to help each other is God making us stronger and forcing us to realize what is actual important in life. It also makes us see that there is still far more good in the world than evil. This makes no logical sense but I have a gut feeling that we are seeing the hand of God right now. Seeing a Biblical style flood will do that to you. I can't tell you how justified in my head I feel about Noah's Ark after surviving a night with over 3 feet of water and a whopping 5+ feet of water within days.

    In my opinion the more logical and quantifiable we turn, as a society, the less equipped we become to battle evil. I am somewhat religious so I find many tools in my box to combat the sort of devil on my shoulder when I need to. As a Catholic I find confession/reconciliation to be an incredibly scary thing because I have to be accountable for the sins I have committed. Of course, facing it and being forgiven brings quite a bit of solace in my life. I hear of Catholic guilt but I feel far less guilty with myself as I face my demons than when I just ignored them.

    So I also believe that we can be inherently evil and there is a constant fight internally and by society for your soul, in essence. I am curious to see what others think that don't necessarily believe in God or that are more aligned with socialism/communist thought processes (that are typically anti-religion.) Is evil something that doesn't exist to you?

    Alright, enough rambling. I don't quite have time to write this up as neatly as I would like but figured it would be a good discussion to start.
  27. theMightyME

    theMightyME Editor in Chief of TVEnthusiast

    So, the closest thing to diagnosable evil are psychopaths... Basically people without empathy hit it guess further than that it is the idea that only you are of any relevance... You would feel fine about torturing animals or killing your family, it wouldn't have any emotional effect on you

    Psychopathic behavior has been attributed to many things from a state at birth to genetics to the environment in which they are raised.

    Interestingly enough, the psychological community tends to frown on early diagnosis because it would lead to too many false positives because children and teenagers naturally exhibit many of the same symptoms.

    But really signs include animal abuse, bullying, and taking trophies of moments of domination.

    I don't think there is any such thing is true or pure evil, a psychopath is the closest thing

    Sociopaths are very similar, and many are in positions of leadership in politics and business. It is often considered beneficial to their ability to get stuff done... Which makes sense in some ways, because if you don't care about how your consequences affect others, it is easier to make tough choices.

    I like if argue against that though since most of our most praised leaders have been diagnosed with digression and other emotional problems that sociopaths do not suffer... Like Abraham Lincoln.

    Our current society seems to glorify sociopathic traits, which I think is harmful... But anyways

    No, I do not believe in evil, I believe in selfishness, and I believe in delusion, and I believe that some people have disorders that magnify these problems

    So in my mind evil would be attributed to selfish and harmful behaviors, but there is no pure evil as some opposing force
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  28. theMightyME

    theMightyME Editor in Chief of TVEnthusiast

    To add on to the religious direction...

    I am an Atheist, and I find the idea that scripture keeping you from acting badly to be silly... What did it say about you that the only thing that keeps you from doing "evil" is the threat of consequences.

    As an Atheist, I don't go around committing "evil deeds" and religion had never kept people from doing "evil" either... the Italian Mafias are catholic, Islamic terrorist are religious, then you have the child molesting catholic priests, etc

    Religion doesn't keep people from committing evil at all... They will either do it anyways in secret and confess or try and find some loophole, or they will reinterpret the material to suit their needs

    So many of the world's worst people are religious... It doesn't even slow them down.

    Not saying religion is bad, just that it won't matter to a bad person,it won't stop them... I they will find a way to exploit our ignore their way into doing what they want
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  29. sjmartin79

    sjmartin79 White Phoenix of the Crown

    I took a class in college called "The History and Psychology of Evil". It dealt a lot with Stalin, Lenin, Hitler... as well as some of our mass murderers and serial killers.
    For me personally, I've always felt that a lot of the evil done in the world is related to mental health and other psychological things, but I think there are also some people that are just inherently evil. Something in their heart and soul is just missing.
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  30. Odo

    Odo Well-Known Member

    Yes, I believe there is and I believe it's more nature than nurture. I don't believe in the theory that people are born good, because babies are always good and that the world make them bad as they grow either. People are born sinners and they need to be properly raised.
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  31. theMightyME

    theMightyME Editor in Chief of TVEnthusiast

    I don't see it as being as simple as one of the other, and I prefer to say mentally ill to evil... Mental illness can be natural, like most cases of schizophrenia, or it can be made by your environment, like how a large number of pedophiles were molested themselves as children, which warped them... Or cases of PTSD which is entirely environmental. Often times mental illness is a cross section of MANY factors born, learned, even some neurological injuries and brain damage can cause it

    They people who do horrific things oftentimes do so because they lack empathy (sociopaths and psychopaths) or they have issues with their perception of reality.

    Some are lost causes, some are not

    I strongly disagree with the concept of being born sinners though... You can be born damaged, but a sin is a conscious action

    Not only do I disagree with this sentiment, but I think it is dangerous.
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