Third Parties: With me, or against me.....

Discussion in 'Nintendo' started by Goodtwin, Jan 21, 2017.

  1. Goodtwin

    Goodtwin Well-Known Member

    I really feel like Nintendo needs to embrace their situation, and understand that they need to build real alliances to succeed going forward. On the same token, many third party developers need to make the same decision. There is a certain amount of animosity for Nintendo when it comes to many third party developers. Regardless what the reasons for that may be, they need to acknowledge it, and take the altercation on head on.

    How many times have we heard EA's developers slam Nintendo? Just recently the developer of Titanfall bashes Switch. Dice had blasted the Wii U. Needless to say, EA is not your friend Nintendo. They aint your buddy, partner, or friend. Of course the PR from the suites will always come out and apologize for these comments, but in truth, this is the sentiment of the company. EA would prefer Nintendo disappear as a hardware company. They do just enough to leave the door open in case the Nintendo console takes off, but in reality they would like to see Nintendo die off as a hardware manufacture.

    Nintendo hardware is inevitably different from the competition, and a copy and paste method of software development doesn't work. By supporting this more obscure platform, it only appeases a niche group of consumers on the platform that are interested in buying such games, and thus has limited sales potential. I believe that the mind set is this, if we stop supporting Nintendo hardware, we can persuade the majority of those gamers to buy hardware that they do support. In a way, by supporting Nintendo, they are supporting a platform that is really competition to the platforms that they are truly vested in. Good sales for AAA Western games on Nintendo hardware isn't likely to eclipse a million units sold. Its in their best interest to convert those games to PS or Xbox.

    This is where Nintendo has to realize that these companies do not wish you success, but root for your demise in private (sometimes publically). Publishers like EA want to dictate what the videogame industry looks like. What kind of games we play. This is where developers have to realize that just like Nintendo, they themselves may not fit inside the mold that they have created. There is no room in this world for modest selling JRPG's, 3D Platformers, and really anything that competes with the trending AAA releases.

    Its time for Nintendo to realize they need to build an army. Where does a developer like Platinum have the best chance for success? Atlus? Sega? Konami? Tecmo? Namco? Sorry, but the truth is EA and Activision want to rid themselves of these nuisances as well. Nintendo needs to make real allies, and come to the mutal agreement that their future is brighter together.

    Nintendo Switch can be the outlet to really let the more obscure software have the spot light. Its time for some of these publishers to realize that the currently business model is bringing upon a slow death for many publishers. Konami goes from AAA releases on PS4/X1 to focusing on mobile? How about Castlevania for Switch? Nintendo needs to develop allies who realize there is no room for them in a world of COD and Assassins Creed on the Xbox and PlayStation platforms.

    Nintendo needs to work with potential allies, and communicate that developers like them are all short for this world unless they help build a platform where those experiences can thrive a do well.
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  2. FriedShoes

    FriedShoes $nipperMod Staff Member Moderator

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  3. tekshow

    tekshow Active Member

    Very good points. Especially the part about smaller devs not fitting in with the competition like EA. I think Nintendo moved towards those teams during the U and the Switch sizzle reels are already showing it to be an indie darling along with smaller devs.

    The internet seems to be up and arms over Bomberman R, but you're getting a game from Konami. .... Konami! Do they even make games anymore. I also found out today that Nintendo approached and helped the team behind Snipperclips make their game a reality.

    The industry is kind of struggling against itself. There's plenty of indies,but they're buried in a mammoth marketplace. Smaller games like Yooka Laylee are hits, but they're also from established developers.

    The benefit of Nintendo's position is they can provide a level of curation. They've proven they can launch their own successful new IP and with games like Shovel Knight they've done the same for other developers. After watching dozens of upcoming Switch games videos I'm wholly excited for the platform. Not only is the hardware great but the incoming stream of gsmes is unique and different.

    Standouts for me besides first party is Snipperclips, Has been Heroes, I am Setsuana, Project Octopath, Xenoblade 2, Disgea 5 and the next Shovel Knight. There's been cries on the internets about how it should have been FFXV instead of this weird "Octo game-wats-that?" In my respectful opinion that's stupid. While I'd consider double dipping for ports of the Witcher or FF, a brand new Square game is much more exciting, I have t okayed any of the gsmes I listed so for me, they're hand picking some great titles. The Switch is also a platform that older games could thrive on. Maybe the def doesn't want to put time and resources into a title like Fallout 4, but I'd sure as shit rebuy New Vegas or the Mass Effect Trilogy just to have them portable. Imagine the cost savings and the ease of bringing those games over.

    Nintendos in a good spot, and I think and hope with fingers crossed they're finally learning to build some relationships.

    We'll know more soon, lol.
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  4. Koenig

    Koenig The Architect

    Nintendo needs to foster more 3rd party support, period. Traditionally they have adopted a very uninviting development and publishing environment, much of which is still left over from their NES monopoly days; ultimately chooses to "let" developers make games for the their system rather than actively seek it out. It has done nothing to endear them to publishers, and short of selling 100M units of hardware I don't see many of the major publishers left pushing full support.

    I want to see Nintendo actively pursue 3rd party support, as there is no other way that attitudes towards them are ever going to change. That said, what exactly they need to do to secure said support and build the army you speak of it beyond my realm of expertise.
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  5. mattavelle1

    mattavelle1 Fresh starts now Staff Member Moderator

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  6. FriedShoes

    FriedShoes $nipperMod Staff Member Moderator

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  7. Jack Lovejoy

    Jack Lovejoy Active Member

    Fuck EA, Activision, Konami, and all their shitty business practices.
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  8. Redhatdrawler

    Redhatdrawler Active Member

    Fuck EA...
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  9. Goodtwin

    Goodtwin Well-Known Member

    Nintendo needs to build an army of outsiders, making Switch the ultimate alternative to what the competition offers. Im not saying close the doors on Activision, but begging for 2nd rate support from them isnt going to help Switch succeed. Nintendo needs to stand strong with many alliances. Im not sure how the relationship with Capcom isnt better than it is. Monster Hunter paid Capcoms bills for years, and that was thanks to the popularity of the 3DS in Japan. Even did pretty good on Wii and Wii U. Nintendo also needs to embrace nastalgia, and ressurect some older IP's. Give Platinum games free reighn on a proper Star Fox or Metroid. Look for partners that will truly give you their best effort, not the ones only interested in making a quick buck.
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  10. mattavelle1

    mattavelle1 Fresh starts now Staff Member Moderator

  11. Goodtwin

    Goodtwin Well-Known Member

    I think Switch brings the opportunity for "old is new again" type of strategy. Konami brining Bomberman R and Ultra Street Fighter 2 from Capcom. If these games do well, third parties could get a of sense of low risk opportunities with Switch that other platforms haven't really offered. You can imagine if Capcom sees great results with Street Fighter, and then decides to see what happen with Mega Man 2 with a fresh coat of paint on it. Or Konami releases Castlevania HD. Nintendo's core audience does seem to be a nostalgic audience, and perhaps this is a niche where third parties really do have an opportunity.
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  12. mattavelle1

    mattavelle1 Fresh starts now Staff Member Moderator

    I think these will all do well. The closer launch comes the more I feel like LoZ is gonna drive this thing like a dump truck at full speed going down an 8 lane with 0 traffic.

    Just by havin these games there to offer. I think there gonna sell very well with the crowd there focusing on.

    And speakin of 3rd party's I was checkin out the IGN Lobby and saw that this list was updated.

    I'm pretty damn excited to see Steep on that list now. I've been fiending a snowboarding game for awhile now. I'm lovin the diversity outta this list. There is a ton of stuff here I want this year.
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  13. Jack Lovejoy

    Jack Lovejoy Active Member

    What did Nintendo do to deserve Third Party Support to be honest?

    NES/SNES- Threatened retailers to not stock the competition's products, leading to an unfair monopoly, and even threatened against the third party developers to understock their products if they ever developed their games on different platforms. This was shown by Namco deciding to quit Nintendo because of their greedy actions and going on to support Sega and the TurboGrafix16, but joined back for the SNES because their business was plummeting. Developers were more than happy to see Sega go up against Nintendo and shifted platforms.

    N64- Nintendo went after cartridges that are purposefully made to be harder to develop for and have very high development costs to "pick out the smaller developers" and as a result, most Third Parties shifted to Sony Playstation and this was a move Nintendo could never recover from up to this day.

    Gamecube- Nintendo had no intention to give development kits for the Nintendo Gamecube, even having shortages AFTER the launch of the Gamecube and simply believed that Third parties would come to them for no real reason. They were also very arrogant during this era as they said that they would win against Sony and Microsoft as they considered Third Parties to be "Useless companies" and bashed on third party companies for having games developed for all 3 consoles. Yes, they literally called third parties "useless companies" and as a result, they did not view the PS2 as a threat just because they have garnered so much third party support.... And we all know how that turned out....

    Wii- Nintendo's core audience has been dwindling from generation to generation and thought that they could completely abandon their core audience and aim after the casual and non-gamer crowd without embracing HD capabilities, online infrastructure like the xbox 360 and ps3, and having childish gimmicks. Sure it has been a commerical success with over 100 million units but there is a reason why the Wii died when its lifecycle was not even complete. Third Party Developers jumped off ship because it was generally not a good console to develop for and thus the reason why they made the ps3 and xbox 360 have games even after their successors launched. Nintendo catered to themselves and that's all they catered to.

    Wii U- Wii all over again, but did not have the large casual line up like the Wii and the games come out slower thanks to third parties not finding the Wii U worth developing games for with its last-gen graphics and gimmicky gamepad.

    Nintendo Switch-

    So what has made you think they magically deserve to get support from others?
  14. mattavelle1

    mattavelle1 Fresh starts now Staff Member Moderator

    Well Jack to answer you initial question. Nintendo built a console or a portable, therefore giving some third party's the ability to make money. I guess that's what they did to deserve 3rd party support is that some of them make money.
  15. Jack Lovejoy

    Jack Lovejoy Active Member

    Read my entire post first or watch this video:
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    Last edited: Jan 27, 2017
  16. mattavelle1

    mattavelle1 Fresh starts now Staff Member Moderator

    Your the one who asked the question, not me. :mfacepalm:
  17. Jack Lovejoy

    Jack Lovejoy Active Member

    There is a difference between magnetizing 3rd party support and deserving third party support. As I said, read the entire thing first before you jump to answers.
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  18. Juegos

    Juegos All mods go to heaven. Staff Member Moderator

    Why are you even talking about whether Nintendo "deserves" third party or not? That has nothing to do with this thread. The point of the thread is to talk about what kind of strategy Nintendo has to employ to get third party support. Whether you think they have enough good-boy-points to deserve them has no bearing. If you want to talk about Nintendo's failed third party policies of the past, and whether they deserve your goodwill or not, maybe you should start a different thread instead of derailing this one.
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  19. Socar

    Socar Active Member

    Funny how none of you guys mentioned of how much of third party support they have on their handheld divisions......

    Now just to rant at SEGA here...for a bit...

    From Takashi lizuka

    "When SEGA stopped making hardware and just started doing software, the first platform that we released Sonic on was a Nintendo console. We felt from the very beginning, that the Nintendo platforms were where the passionate Sonic fans were. Historically that is where our relationship started with Nintendo. Unfortunately, the Wii U didn’t manage to get as many gamers on the hardware as we would have liked. That was unfortunate for Sonic because we didn’t get the mass of people to enjoy the content. But Nintendo has always been a great partner, we have Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games, Sonic in Super Smash Bros… we really appreciate the work that they do.”

    Ok SEGA explain to me why on earth you did NOT release Valkyria Chronicles 2 on the 3DS? Infact, seeing as how you are one of the good supporters of Nintendo, why the hell do you not make most of your games available on Nintendo systems as well? Is there a specific reason as to why Valkyria Chronicles can't be on a Nintendo system? If anything, VC is loosely based on Sakura Wars(interms of game play alone) so that makes two IPs that don't see a Nintendo release.

    Yet you release Sonic games and for the most of the time, they are left crappy or something that fans didn't have in mind. Sure, Sonic Mania looks great and for great reasons too but us Nintendo fans want more than just idk maybe...PHANTASY STAR?!? Or how about again, VC?!?!

    Now I can understand that some IPs like Yakuza cannot be on a Nintendo system cause well...Nintendo will censor a lot of things that you aren't a big fan off so I can respect that? But what is there to censor for VC???? Better yet, what reason VC is never on a Nintendo system.

    Heck, what's the reason that Persona 5 (even though I'm not into Atlus games) isn't on Switch?

    SEGA, in confuse the hell out of me.
  20. Goodtwin

    Goodtwin Well-Known Member

    Third parties like Sega have typically sterotyped Nintendo gamers, assuming we will only buy Sonic, and most of their other IP's are slated for other consoles. It's not like these games flourish on the other consoles, sales are often disappointing.

    Sent from my SM-G360V using genital warts
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    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
  21. Odo

    Odo Well-Known Member

    I'm not disagreeing with Goodtwin, catering for Japanese devs is crucial for Nintendo now, however my opinion is on the side of the traditional strategy of do what most of 3rd parties want you to do and bringing consumers in the first place.

    The lesson from PS is that PS1 was the SNES successor that everyone was waiting for while N64 was something totally unusual and in many ways sort of ridiculous. (I'm a N64 fan, though)

    Nintendo don't need to beg for western devs, but they need to work harder on making a more traditional console if they want more content -- plus they need consumers. The dwindling fanbase of Nintendo is a real issue and if Switch will have enough consumers only with Mario and AA Japanese games on Switch is yet to be known, but in the end, install base is the only thing that developers care about.
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  22. Juegos

    Juegos All mods go to heaven. Staff Member Moderator

    I'm quoting this sentence in specific because I think it's a very good summary of the current state of Nintendo, and it leaves room for every person to decide for themselves how much each clause in that sentence matters to them personally.
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  23. Goodtwin

    Goodtwin Well-Known Member

    Western publishers are being very cautious with Switch, and honestly I do not really blame them. Historically, third party multi plats have done poorly on Nintendo hardware. If you go back and look at sales of third party games on the Xbox compared to the Gamecube, "most" multi plat games did better on Xbox than the Gamecube, typically substantially better on Xbox. The install base was nearl identical for those two consoles. Then we had the Wii with a tremendous userbase, and sales were often dissapointing for third party games. Third party Publishers are taking this history into account. A large install base is very important for whem concerning Nintendo because the attach ratio for their games on Nintendo hardware has been historically poor.

    Western Publishers also share a business model that makes releasing games without the ability to generate tens of millions of dollars a no go for them. With projects cost 50-100+ million dollars to develop, making a few million dollars on a platform is considered a waste of time. This is where the issue with Nintendo platforms comes into play. Porting is no copy and paste scenario, and real porting cost and resources are needed to make it happen. If they have reason to believe the port has a higher likelyhood of doing poorly than well, they will probably decline to take the risk. They just havent seen big returns of their ports, and often seen them do very poorly.

    In the Japanese development scene, there are still a tremenous amount of low to mid budget titles being developed where sales expectations are much lower, and thus the risk of failure is lower as well. For a game like Project Octopath on Switch, selling a few hundred thousand copies will result in fantastic returns on investment. The latest Final Fantasy game for PS4/X1 would cost more to port to Switch than Project Octopaths entire development cost. These are assumptions I am making of course, but I believe them to be reasonable.

    Western Publishers will be there if Switch takes off like a rocket, but its partnerships with real partners likes KOEI Tecmo, Namco, and Platinum that help assure Switch is not only an immediate success, but long term. As quick as EA puts Madden on Switch, they could just as easily scrap it the following year if software sales dissapoint. Same with COD on Switch from Activision. They may test the waters, but it would take some million sellers to keep them around. Dont get me wrong, I would love to see Switch recieve wide spread support from all publishers. I just think their odds of maintaining support is the greatest with publishers who consisently release games that are considered a success at a few hundred thousand sold, and not many millions of units like Western Publishers.
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  24. EvilTw1n

    EvilTw1n Now with X-Parasites Staff Member Moderator

    Nintendo is the only company that can be profitable with one device that has an install base of 65 million, plus have a good chunk of bank for a rainy day, and still also be in this situation. I don't mean that facetiously or in a "doomed since 1889"-way; it's just how it is. Nintendo is in a unique situation due to making hardware that is typically only a successful platform for big, ambitious software made by...Nintendo. Which leads me to...
    This reminds me of this old article and chart...


    We're a site for enthusiasts, so it's easy to lose sight that the average person may only buy 2 or 3 games a year (that chart is for about 2 years on the market, and it's probably skewed by the enthusiasts who buy a dozen games or the like). 3D Mario, 2D Mario, Zelda, Kart, Smash, Pikmin, DKC, Xenoblade, Splatoon, the odd Nintendo-published collab (Hyrule Warriors, Bayonetta, W101, TMS#FE) just run the hell out of room for third parties to succeed against your own IP. That isn't a qualitative judgement on third parties and their work; it's just how it has played out.

    Handhelds have been different, of course, but the margins for development cost and profit are correspondingly smaller there. If anyone is wondering why Nintendo doesn't just want to slam the door shut on handhelds...well, there's your answer. Nintendo can push the sales for a cheap handheld with their own software, and on a hardware device that allows relatively small development budgets, that means smaller third party efforts can profit without selling huge numbers. Mid-tier "A" and "AA" games didn't really completely die in the HD era - they just went to the DS and 3DS.

    Is the designated handheld audience dying? Or can it bleed into a Nintendo hybrid console as a sort of transfusion? We'll find out pretty soon.
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    Last edited: Feb 4, 2017
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